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Howard


Posts: 102
Registered:
August 2004
Re: stoichiometries of modifiers 26 Apr '05 20:25 Go to previous messageGo to previous message


Without going into all of the theory, let me just say that there exists
a probabilistic version of the quasi steady state approximation. Rao &
Arkin have written a paper on one version of it as applied to the Master
equation. And, like I mentioned in a previous post, the XML parsed
MathML syntax (or something similar) that represents equations in SBML
is not (at least for my purposes) an adequate way of storing the rate
laws. Again, I like the idea of using a mapping of unique integers to
their corresponding rate law forms, but I'd be happy with anything that
works well.

-Howard Salis

Pedro Mendes wrote:

>On Tuesday 26 April 2005 08:36 pm, Howard Salis wrote:
>
>
>>Like the previous email, I was referring to what happens when you make
>>the QSS approximation and write down the Michaelis Menten-like rate law.
>>Like you said, I is then a modifier, and the rate law depends on its
>>stoichiometry (among other things). If that information is not encoded
>>in the SBML file, then a simulator using a continuous time MC method
>>will not be able to simulate the system as intended by the modeler.
>>
>>
>
>the information is encoded in the SBML file exactly as a rate law. It will
>contain one or more terms for I with several constants. The stoichiometry
>of I in the elementary reactions is reflected in these terms. However in
>this overall reaction I has stoichiometry zero.
>
>I believe from this last explanation, your problem is not having the correct
>rate equation that reflects the behavior of the system with very small
>numbers of molecules. In these conditions the steady-state approximation
>(or the fast equilibrium one) is not appropriate and so you will have to
>derive an overall rate equation in some other way, if at all possible. I
>would suggest that you include all of the elementary steps. In that case,
>my previous point holds (I would not be a modifier). If you want an overall
>rate law that is appropriate for the conditions you described then the
>solution does not pass by assigning stoichiometric coefficients to
>modifiers. This is not a problem of SBML.
>
>Hope that this helps with the solution.
>Pedro
>
>


      

SubjectPosterDate
Read Message   stoichiometries of modifiers Hiroyuki Kuwahara25 Apr '05 09:56
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Pedro Mendes25 Apr '05 13:39
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers emek25 Apr '05 14:26
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Hiroyuki Kuwahara25 Apr '05 18:08
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers emek26 Apr '05 01:14
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Hiroyuki Kuwahara26 Apr '05 08:52
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers emek26 Apr '05 11:24
Read Message   RE: stoichiometries of modifiers Herbert Sauro25 Apr '05 14:40
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers zucker25 Apr '05 16:27
Read Message   RE: stoichiometries of modifiers Hiroyuki Kuwahara25 Apr '05 18:09
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Howard25 Apr '05 19:14
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Pedro Mendes26 Apr '05 05:30
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Howard26 Apr '05 10:27
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Stefan Hoops26 Apr '05 15:16
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Greg Blumenthal26 Apr '05 16:01
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Nicolas Le Novere27 Apr '05 01:29
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Mike Hucka27 Apr '05 21:07
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Howard26 Apr '05 16:38
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Pedro Mendes26 Apr '05 17:22
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Howard26 Apr '05 17:36
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Pedro Mendes26 Apr '05 19:01
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers  Howard26 Apr '05 20:25
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers J.Weimar27 Apr '05 01:06
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Howard27 Apr '05 08:43
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Pedro Mendes27 Apr '05 10:32
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Stefan Hoops27 Apr '05 11:02
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Darren J Wilkinson27 Apr '05 12:55
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Howard27 Apr '05 14:55
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Ben Bornstein27 Apr '05 15:56
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Tomas Radivoyevitch27 Apr '05 18:47
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Mike Hucka27 Apr '05 20:46
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Howard27 Apr '05 23:25
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Howard28 Apr '05 09:12
Read Message   RE: stoichiometries of modifiers Andrew Finney07 May '05 01:59
Read Message   RE: stoichiometries of modifiers Andrew Finney07 May '05 01:59
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Mike Hucka17 Jun '05 18:52
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Mike Hucka27 Apr '05 20:52
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Howard27 Apr '05 23:41
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Stefan Hoops28 Apr '05 04:56
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Stefan Hoops28 Apr '05 08:31
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Howard28 Apr '05 10:34
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Upinder Singh Bhalla28 Apr '05 19:34
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Mike Hucka07 May '05 05:29
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Upinder Singh Bhalla07 May '05 05:48
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Mike Hucka13 May '05 18:08
Read Message   RE: stoichiometries of modifiers Andrew Finney22 May '05 00:21
Read Message   RE: stoichiometries of modifiers Mike Hucka17 Jun '05 18:47
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Pedro Mendes28 Apr '05 05:34
Read Message   RE: stoichiometries of modifiers Andrew Finney07 May '05 01:59
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Ed Frank27 Apr '05 08:17
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Mike Hucka28 Apr '05 00:40
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Ed Frank28 Apr '05 07:45
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Darren J Wilkinson29 Apr '05 14:31
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers emek29 Apr '05 15:15
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Darren J Wilkinson30 Apr '05 00:47
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Mike Hucka07 May '05 05:29
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Pedro Mendes07 May '05 22:14
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Stefan Hoops27 Apr '05 04:00
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers ginkel27 Apr '05 12:12
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Hiroyuki Kuwahara26 Apr '05 11:17
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers Mike Hucka27 Apr '05 21:49
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers - is SBML too &qu... Darren J Wilkinson26 Apr '05 14:12
Read Message   is SBML too"narrow"? Nicolas Le Novere26 Apr '05 14:56
Read Message   Re: is SBML too"narrow"? Mike Hucka26 Apr '05 19:26
Read Message   Re: is SBML too"narrow"? Sven Sahle27 Apr '05 01:23
Read Message   Re: is SBML too"narrow"? Mike Hucka27 Apr '05 21:36
Read Message   Re: is SBML too"narrow"? Nicolas Le Novere28 Apr '05 00:50
Read Message   Re: is SBML too"narrow"? Ed Frank28 Apr '05 07:57
Read Message   RE: is SBML too"narrow"? Andrew Finney07 May '05 01:59
Read Message   Re: is SBML too"narrow"? Nicolas Le Novere27 Apr '05 01:35
Read Message   Re: is SBML too"narrow"? Rainer Machne28 Apr '05 06:13
Read Message   Re: is SBML too"narrow"? Fabien Campagne28 Apr '05 11:33
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers - is SBML too &q... Pedro Mendes26 Apr '05 15:15
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers - is SBML too &qu... Mike Hucka26 Apr '05 20:55
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers - is SBML too&quo... Tomas Radivoyevitch26 Apr '05 22:23
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers - is SBML too&quo... Mike Hucka27 Apr '05 21:59
Read Message   SBML packaging Nicolas Le Novere28 Apr '05 00:59
Read Message   Re: SBML packaging Mike Hucka02 May '05 00:29
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers - is SBML too &qu... Darren J Wilkinson27 Apr '05 12:47
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers - is SBML too &qu... Mike Hucka06 May '05 03:16
Read Message   Re: stoichiometries of modifiers - is SBML too &q... Pedro Mendes07 May '05 21:32
Read Message   RE: stoichiometries of modifiers - is SBML too&quo... Andrew Finney07 May '05 01:59
Read Message   RE: stoichiometries of modifiers Andrew Finney07 May '05 01:59
Read Message   RE: stoichiometries of modifiers Herbert Sauro13 May '05 18:17
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